Ancient Warfare Podcast

In this episode of the Ancient Warfare Magazine podcast, Murray and Jasper are joined by Stephen DeCasien to discuss rams on ships.

Stephen is a PhD candidate at Texas A&M University studying Nautical Archaeology. His academic interests are Greek and Roman maritime history and archaeology, with a special focus on naval warfare, naval rams, and warships.

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To celebrate the 300th episode of the Ancient Warfare Podcast and Ancient Warfare Answers, Murray answers a curly one, what really happened at the battle of Marathon - Murray has forgotten who asked him this but is a 'big' question nonetheless!

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'A question for Murray, who or what made the decisions about where Roman army units were based or moved around the Empire? I am presuming if it were a vexillation from Hadrian's Wall to York, it would be a local commander's decision, but what if it was a cohort sent from York to Gaul, ie between adjacent provinces? Was that worked out by the military staff of the respective governors? And then what about legions moving from, say, Gaul to Syria for military reasons or even for civil engineering projects? Was there a general staff in Rome comprised of ex-field generals, gnarly old centurions and civil servants, or was it down to the Emperor/Senate (depending on the period) to plan it all?'

Thanks for that question Keith.

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Sara wonders how negotiations between different armies were practically arranged. For example, with Caesar in Gaul, several times he had some type of meetings with different groups. Such as the Helvetii before he had even established himself in Gaul. How was such a meeting arranged before and after a battle?

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Murray answers this question set in by Tim. 

'I'm wondering why historians generally accept that Mons Graupius was indeed a great victory for Agricola. My understanding is that Tacitus' account is the only written evidence we have, and archaeology has turned up little physical evidence of the battle.

Is part of the reason that a great victory would have been too big a lie to pass off,  so there must be some truth to the story? Or was it generally accepted for generals to make their victories more impressive so no one in Rome batted an eye at Tacitus' account?'

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Nathan wonders how the Praetorian Guard was structured. Was it used in traditional combat or taken on campaigns? While not directly related to ancient warfare, why did the emperors continually use the Praetorian Guard despite their history of treachery, intrigue, and assassination?

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'The time has come to take the fight to the enemy. How do you prepare? Can you rely on your guides, your allies, and your subordinates? Have you secured enough supplies?'

The Ancient Warfare Magazine team get together to discuss issue XVII.1 In the Land of the Enemy: The Challenges of Campaigning.

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Gregorio Gariglio asks, "could you please tell me what really happened at the Battle of Pydna and are the casualty rates that the sources give to us correct?"

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Blake asks "Love your podcast, my question is about Ancient Roman Enemies and the most well remembered. My question is why do we talk about say Spartacus, Boudica or Hannibal over say Genseric or Shapur I? Especially since the latter were more successful against Rome than the former, I have a few theories but I wanted to hear your answer."

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Matthew Tilley asks "who/what were hypastpists? I always hear very vague descriptions, or none at all." Murray gives his thoughts.

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Murray answers three separate but closely related questions this week – from Floody77 – “Hi Murray, I was wondering who you're favourite ancient general was and why ?”; from Euchale : “Who do you think is one of the most underrepresented Generals of ancient times in popular media, compared to how important they were in their time? Any book recommendations to read more about him?”; and from Caleb on Patreon “If an autobiography of an ancient general could be discovered, who would you want it to be written about, why, and what is already known about them?”

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'Since the dawn of the Classical Era up to World War II, thousands have lost their lives fighting over the pass at Thermopylae.'

Jasper and Murray are joined by Michael Livingston and AW regular Myke Cole to discuss their new book, The Killing Ground: A Biography of Thermopylae.

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Patron Simon's second question asks 'Were there notions of "losing well" or instances of exemplary defeat in ancient warfare?'

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Patron Simon (via postcard) asks 'It's often said that Greek armies put their best soldiers on the right. Given that predictability is exploitable, how and why did such a convention arise?'

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'Shortly after Marcus Aurelius came to power in AD 161, the Roman Empire was racked by a series of military crises. While unrest in Britain and a new war with Parthia were swiftly dealt with, the invasion of Roman territory by the Chatti and Chauci peoples heralded a resurgent threat from the empire’s European neighbours. Soon the Marcomanni and the Quadi, as well as the Dacians and the Sarmatian Iazyges, would attack the Romans in a series of savage conflicts that continued until AD 175 and would involve the first invasion of Roman Italy since the beginning of the 1st century BC.'

Marc talks to Murray about his latest Combat title for Osprey on Marcus Aurelius' Marcomannic Wars, Barbarian Warrior vs Roman Legionary: Marcomannic Wars AD 165–180.

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Murray answers a question from a 12-year-old fan from Italy, Greg - How many casualties were there really at Magnesia? The Roman sources say 53,000 for the Seleucids and only 350 Romans died. Is This true?

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Responding to several comments on recent podcasts which have looked at heavy infantry, especially the Macedonian phalanx, Murray looks at the issue of light armed troops in ancient battle accounts.

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Mark wants to hear Murray's thoughts on comparing the Roman wars against the Vandals vs the Punic Wars. Mark writes, 'both the Roman-Vandal and Roman-Carthage wars occurred roughly in the same geographic area and included naval and land-based fighting. However, within 26 years the Vandals had conquered North Africa, the major islands of the Western Med and sacked Rome. 

In the 3rd/2nd centuries BCE the 1st/2nd Punic wars lasted over 60 years, and even then, neither side could capture each other's capitals. Granted, the Roman Empire was exhausted and fighting multiple enemies for much of the 5th century CE- but the Roman Republic also fought on multiple fronts during the 2nd Punic War. 

Then, in the 6th century CE, Belisarius was able to conquer and annex the Vandal Kingdom in less than a year. Why did these later wars seem to happen at a much faster pace? Did smaller armies and a more depopulated Mediterranean in late antiquity shorten wars? Were logistics better with better ships or Roman roads? Did later armies and navies use different tactics or technologies so that wars were much shorter?'

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Murray answers a question from a 12-year-old fan from Italy, Greg - How many casualties were there really at Magnesia? The Roman sources say 53,000 for the Seleucids and only 350 Romans died. Is This true?

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Murray answers this question from Jsoth, 'during the battle of Issus, it's my understanding that the Macedonian phalanx struggled and even lost ground against Darius' mercenary Greeks. I was under the impression that if facing off directly, the sarrisa-wielding phalanx would be at an advantage with their longer spears, but here, that doesn't seem to be the case. Do historians believe this is accurate, and if so, why or how?'

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'King at just 20, Alexander of Macedon spent two years securing his northern borders and Greece. In 334 he crossed the Hellespont to begin the campaign his father had prepared: the invasion of Achaemenid Persia.'

The Ancient Warfare team discuss issue XVI.6 of the magazine Alexander versus Darius. 

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John asks 'What are your thoughts on the news that we are starting to be able to read some of the carbonised scrolls from Herculaneum. What do you think will be found when we can read them? What would you love to be located, rediscovered?'

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Murray is asked, 'I am reading about Spanish Conquistadors. Since they were unfamiliar with the land, they would capture local tribe members and force them to act as guides. On many occasions, the guides would deliberately lead them astray to be attacked or direct them away from villages. Are there any notable incidents in ancient warfare where this occurred?'

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Negrisan George writes, 'I Read about how the Dacians imposed high tribute on the Romans in the first century AD. I'm not an expert, but I think the Dacians were the only ones who received tribute from Roman Empire. 

And then I read how the Daco-Roman wars started: how Trajan invaded Dacia with one-third of the army of the empire. A third can you imagine? And, of course they defeated the Dacians and robbed Dacia. 

Was the purpose of the campaign to get the gold from what is today Rosia Montana in Romania? After defeating the Dacians Trajan built Trajan's Column to depict the wars - it was a huge matter of pride for the Romans. Were the Dacians the most respected and feared enemy of the Roman Empire?' 

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Murray talks with regular AW contributor Jo Ball about her new book from Pen & Sword on the career of Publius Quinctilius Varus and the Teutoburg Disaster of AD 9.

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We got a Postcard! From Euchale in Heidelberg.  

Euchale asks two questions: "1. Have you ever played Age of Mythology. If so, how doyou like the depiction and speech of the various armies of the game? 2. How much of your research happens online, and how much from physical books? Any recommendations on how to find good books related to a topic? Any sources other than books and the internet?"

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"Why does Marcus Aurelius never take the blame for appointing his son his heir rather than the most qualified, like 3 of the 4 emperors before him? Maybe he should have spent less time philosophising and more time being a father."

Murray gives us his thoughts.

JSoth asks "Out of curiosity, if Crassus knew Caeser, then during Carrhae, why not build a heavily fortified camp the night after the first day as Caeser may have done? If the Parthians didn't fight at night, and the army was comprised of 10,000 all-mounted troops, that seems like it would have made at least some sense. In particular, if he would have been able to make palisades tall enough and simply encamped another day, thereby giving more time to come up with a proper answer to the situation."

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Augustus' reign started with a thorny problem. He was now the proud 'owner' of 50-odd legions, and no rivals to his power. For now. His solution was a system that lasted.

The team discusses the latest edition of the magazine issue XVI.5 The Roman Imperial Legions: The army of the Julio Claudians.

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Manos sent this in for Murray to chew over. 

'Having heard and read so much about Phillip & Alexander’s training of the Macedonian phalanx as to becoming flexible in manoeuvring difficult battle landscapes as well as proficient when encountering lateral attacks, I remain sceptical about the devastating results in both the battles of Cynoscephalae and Pydna. Was it hubris on the part of Phillip and later his son Perseus or lax training which resulted in both battles’ outcome?'

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Patron of the podcast, Mathew, sent this question in. 

Are there accounts of artillery specifically targeting leaders, for example, a Legatus or centurion? Or dedicated expert archers, etc., to do the same? Imagine a sniper-type scenario. This seems like a tactic that could have been used to demoralise a force and eliminate command and control quickly.

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Chris poses this question for Murray. 

'More Roman soldiers were killed in the civil wars against other Roman soldiers than any other adversary. Why was it so easy for usurpers to convince their soldiers to fight against their brethren? And why didn't emperors try to change whatever facilitated this kind of behaviour?'

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In this episode of the podcast, Murray answers two questions, both on the battle of the Hydaspes.

The first was sent in by @gregoriogariglio7750. How many Macedonian and Indian casualties were at the Battle of the Hydaspes?

The second question is from @jsoth2675. Is it possible, or likely even, that the battle of Hydaspes against King Porus was fabricated? Are there any Indian sources that agree a battle took place? 

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We are between issues of the magazine for this episode of the podcast. After casting around for ideas, Mark suggested the topic for Friday night's chat: the impact of weather on conflict.

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Murray ponders how little information we have on Aurelian, Probus etc. but Diocletian is well documented in the histories Augusta. Thanks to @Evocletian for sending this question in.

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Daniel writes, 'Plutarch mentions a letter to Alexander from Anaxarchus in his Moralia. It was stated that there were 'worlds innumerable' and that Alexander wept as he had not even conquered a single one. Firstly, could this be an early precursor to the 'multiverse' theory so popular in media at the moment? Secondly, would you be able to comment on the contrast between this statement and the usual notion that Alexander wept when 'there were NO more worlds left to conquer', as these both seem to contradict each other?'

Thank you Daniel for sending that in.

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Jsoth, wonders what account of the battle of Milvain Bridge does Murray find most convincing, and what supporting evidence is of the battle?

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'A general for his stepmother Hatshepsut from a young age, Thutmose III conducted dozens of campaigns into the ancient Near East and Nubia, leaving extensive records.'

In this episode of the Ancient Warfare Magazine podcast, the team discusses XVI.4 New Kingdom Empire Builder: Pharaoh Thutmose III goes to war.

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After recently rereading Thucydides, GC asks, "Fire-signals of an attack were also raised towards Thebes; but the Plataeans in the town at once displayed a number of others, prepared beforehand for this very purpose, in order to render the enemy’s signals unintelligible." 

I would have imagined that a fire signal was quite simple, fire or no fire. This implies much greater sophistication. 

What is known about this?'

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In this week's Any Warfare Answers, Murray answers this question sent in by Jamie. 'The rest of the guys on the podcast all have their areas of expertise and are each an expert in a different, very specific aspect of ancient history, whereas you seem to have a grasp of all of it.

How did you become such a generalist?'

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Kyle asks, 'What was the mechanism that Carthage (or really any ancient power) used to recruit mercenaries? Were there people whose job it was to travel Gaul, Iberia, Greece, etc., recruiting, or was the sending of mercenaries part of political negations?'

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Something slightly different for this episode of the Ancient Warfare podcast. Regular of the podcast Marc De Santis talks to Murray about his work, focusing on the books Murray has written for Osprey, specifically his four books for the Combat Series.

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In this episode, Murray muses on a question sent in by Nathan asking if, in the ancient world, there was some sort of volley fire such as we see in the 19th century with ranks of infantry.

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Andy has been listening to rival podcasts as points out that 'the term assassin does not turn up until after the crusades. My understanding is there were plenty of assassinations before this. What term did the Romans use? Where these people specially trained?' 

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Curt asks Murray, 'did Alexander The Great’s army introduce Pankration to India? If so could Pankration have contributed to the future expansion of martial arts from India to China & other Asian countries?'

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Jasper, the editor of Ancient Warfare Magazine, asked on social media what themes readers felt the magazine had not covered but should or themes it should revisit. The team look at what suggestions were sent in and give some thoughts of their own.

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Jacob wonders, 'if field artillery was ever used against a Macedonian-style phalanx? If not, why not? The close formation and immobility of the phalanx would leave it extremely susceptible to scorpion, ballista, etc fire.' 

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Carlos asks, 'in the current war in Ukraine, we've seen Ukrainian soldiers write insulting messages and trolling ones on artillery shells before firing them at Russian forces. Did a similar practice exist in the ancient Mediterranean world with soldiers writing insults and or the use of verbal insults.'

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Wyton asks, 'During the republic, what were the Romans Italian allies armed with, and how did they fight? As legionaries or some other method?'

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Robert asks, 'Why javelins? It seems that a bow would be a much better weapon for a skirmish in the ancient world, but it seems that javeLin armed light troops may have been the most common type in Europe.

Additionally, if using javelins, why not an atlatl to throw them with? This would make a difference in hitting a target, but one has to believe that range would be an important factor while skirmishing.'

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'Is there today or has there been anyone trying to conduct larger-scale experimental archaeology to try and answer some of the common questions about certain infantry tactics/tropes such as the othismos and open vs closed order legions?' 

Murray tells us about experimental archaeology.

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Alex asks, 'When is the last documented evidence of one of the original Roman Legions being in existence?

I remember reading about Legio V Macedonica being based in Egypt just before the Arab Conquests in the 640s, but I am unsure if this is factually correct'.

Murray lists us the last documented evidence for the Legions.

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Murray talks with Roel Konijnendijk about his recent work on 19th-century German language scholars and how they laid the foundations of much of the 20th century's understanding of Classical Greek warfare. 

Giants like Moltke, Delbrück, Kochly and Rustow's foundations were, however, based on 19th-century understandings of how war worked, and their views (rightfully) have been challenged. This only began in earnest in the late 20th century, and overcoming the dominance of these 19th-century thinkers is still a mountain to climb.

Curt wonders why did Alexander the Great not look westwards, starting with Rome during his conquests? There are a lot of 'what if's' here for Murray to deal with.

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Samuel points out that Xenophon makes reference to the Sciritai as part of the Spartan army foray into Boeotia during the mid-370s). And the sources are a bit patchy.

He asks do we know/can we infer anything about the Sciritai? How did they fit into Spartan society as a whole? What roles did they perform within the Spartan army (on and off the battlefield)? How were they armed? 

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Mark, one of our patrons, wonders if Murray sees a place for AI in helping to translate ancient manuscripts. Could AI step up to help with this and help sort and categorise through keywords, names, etc.

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Listener Andy Shaw wonders why the sarissa 'seems to fall out of use between the two periods even though protecting infantry from cavalry remains a consistent problem across ancient and medieval warfare'?

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Murray gives this thought on this question sent in, 'is the supposed decline in the quality of Hellenistic cavalry true or is that exaggeration with Hellenistic cavalry remaining elite well into the conquest of said Hellenistic kingdoms by the Romans?'

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When did the phalanx become the fully-developed formation we imagine? In this issue of Ancient Warfare, we explore the various changes and developments in the seventh through fifth centuries BC that eventually led to the emergence of the 'Classical' Greek hoplite.

The Ancient Warfare team discuss issue XVI.2 of the magazine, The coming of the Hoplite: Shields, spears and shining bronze.

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Murray ponders why Macedonian casualty figures were low and how enemy casualty figures might have been calculated. Did someone go around counting all the dead Persian bodies, or did Macedonian soldiers get to estimate how many Persians they had killed? 

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Following his last question from Murray a few weeks ago, Andy asks, 'the question I’ve always wondered is why it seems to fall out of use between the two periods even though protecting infantry from cavalry remains a consistent problem across ancient and medieval warfare'?

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"Alexander's Companion cavalry seemed to be the premier cavalry of its age, and was instrumental in the battles against the Persian empire. Why is it then, under the Successor Kingdoms' Generals, that they faired so poorly when confronting the inferior Roman cavalry? Was it due to the lack of Alexander himself, poor training, or just the professionalism of the Roman Legion?"

Murray gives us his thoughts...

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Imperium Romanum is a YouTube channel dedicated to bringing history to life, with documentaries looking at everything Ancient Rome; from the army and military equipment to politics, religion, culture, lifestyle and much more. 

In this episode, Jasper, Murray and Marc are joined by Marc Beermann from Imperium Romanum to talk about what they do.

If you want to enter the competition for a copy of Myke Cole's The Bronze Lie, you need to email awa@ancient-warfare.com with you 25 words on what you enjoy about the magazine. 

The competition closes on 28 February 2023.

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An interesting 'what if' quest from Jeff, who asks Murray for his thoughts on 'what if the Roman Empire had never fallen and was still around today, what would the world look like? And what do you think a modern Roman Empire would be like?"

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Brendon asks why the Macedonian phalanx at the Battles of Issues and Gaugamela suffered such a low casualty rate from arrows fired by archers?

Murray gives us his opinion.

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Tony sent this in for Murray to think about, 'can you tell us anything about the difference in style of combat when comparing late medieval pike vs ancient Sarissa?' 

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One man's pirate is another's daring raider, and the boundary between warrior and pirate can be equally nebulous. Piracy is an age-old problem without a simple solution.

The team discuss issue XVI.1 of the Ancient Warfare magazine Piracy and Raids: Robbers on the Mediterranean.

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Mason sent in a question a few weeks ago, and here he is again with another for Murray.'If Romans were fighting and happened to get surrounded, did they have a formation for that? Did the back line and sides turn around and form a square?'

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'How did the Romans keep track of who actually completed their years of service? What's to stop you from deserting and showing up to claim your pension unfairly? Presumably, this could be tricky in an empire of mostly illiterate people from all over the known world without government driver's licenses or passports'. Murray gives us his thoughts...

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Mason sent this question in for Murray to muse over, 'how did the language differences of auxiliary units affect armies on campaign or during battle? Were there any particular Roman generals who were multilingual'.

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In response to an email from David in New York, Murray explains siege mining in the ancient world.

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Murray answers this question from Pascal, 'could you serve as a soldier, officer or even a consul despite some form of physical handicap during the roman republic?'

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With the holiday season almost upon us, the Ancient Warfare Magazine team discuss new books released in 2022, old and new documentaries that are now available on streaming services and throw in a couple of audiobook suggestions for good measure!   Links (not quite a comprehensive list of all the media mentioned in the show) Books Adrienne Mayor, Greek Fire, Poison Arrows, and Scorpion Bombs: Unconventional Warfare in the Ancient World (2022) Conor Whately, A Sensory History of Ancient Warfare: Reconstructing the Physical Experience of War in the Classical World (2022) Murray Dahm, Hunnic Warrior vs Late Roman Cavalryman: Attila's Wars AD 440–53 (2022) Josiah Osgood, Uncommon Wrath: How Caesar and Cato's Deadly Rivalry Destroyed the Roman Republic (2022) MC Bishop, Roman Plate Armour (2022) Peter Stothard, Crassus: The First Tycoon (2022) Raffaele D'Amato, Post-Roman Kingdoms: ‘Dark Ages' Gaul & Britain, AD 450–800 (2023) Raffaele D'Amato, Roman Army Units in the Eastern Provinces (2): 3rd Century AD (2022) William Horsted, British Celtic Warrior vs Roman Soldier: Britannia AD 43–105 (2022)   Audiobooks Stephen Fry, Troy: The Siege of Troy Retold Tony Robinson, Odysseus: The Greatest Hero of them All   Film & TV Barbarians (2020 - ) In search of the Trojan War (1985) In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great (1998) On Hannibal's Trail (2010) Secrets of the Dead (2000 - ) Spartacus (1960) Scipione l'africano (1937)  

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Murray got this question from Jonathan via email 'I read about Caesar bridging of the Rhine, is that how armies bridged rivers after him, following his example, what about before him?'

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Bill sent Murray this question, 'how long was the Macedonian Sarissa? I've read a lot about 20' and sometimes longer'. 

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Jonathan sent this question directly to Murray 'What was the standard depth of a hoplite line? I see eight mentioned all the time – were there any others?' 

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Jasper and Murray are joined by Julien Blurel, the brains behind the Invicta YouTube channel.

In the latest episode, Invicta demonstrates the true size of a Roman legion. This is the first of their new 'true size' series, which aims to bring history to life in 3D using the Unreal Engine.

True Size of the Roman Legion really puts into context the Roman army camp, the Legion on the march and the Roman army order of battle.

You can find it here.

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Patron of the podcast Seanbob sent in this question for Murray to mull over, 'what is up with foreskin collection? I know Ramses wrote on walls about the stacks of foreskins he collected from the sea peoples, and David bought his wife with foreskins (1 Samuel 18:27). So what is the deal?

Was circumcisions popular in some cultures and not others? Why not the whole penis? What did they do with them after they stacked them? Some sort of trophy? Like a deer rack on your Grandpa's wall? It is one thing to like dicks, it is strange to collect foreskins. What is the deal?'

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What happened to all the gear and supplies after a big battle? What did people tend to salvage?

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'Philip II of Macedonia inherited a fragile kingdom under pressure. He absorbed the lessons from his childhood and turned it into a military powerhouse.'

The team discuss the latest issue of the magazine XV.6 Macedonia Rising: The volatile life of King Phillip II.

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How did armies get or store potable water while on campaign? Murray has the answer...

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Murray, once more on his own, discusses what, in his opinion, is a useful analogy for talking about ancient warfare.

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Bryan sent us in this question,'what are some documented cases where the victorious/conquering forces held a deep respect for their defeated foe or for the manner in which their foe fought even though they were ultimately defeated?' 

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Bruce emailed us this question, what do the columns (Trajan, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius) tell us about the wars depicted? Are they reliable narratives? Narratives at all? 

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Andrew emailed us this question for Murray to answer, why did generals write back to the senate about what they had done? Was that account trustworthy – and how can we tell?

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We are between issues of the magazine, but Murray suggested the team discuss who is our favourite military author or ancient source.

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Patron of the podcast Micius Porcius sent us this question for Murray to answer. During the imperial period, did consuls continue leading armies in war as they had in the Republican period or were legions only led by generals assigned by the Emperor? 

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In the last episode, Murray answered the first of two questions Doug posed, the second question being a request to explain the battle of Crimisus in 340BC.

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Murray tackles this question that Doug emailed in, 'what kind of armies, weapons, and tactics were used by Carthage and Syracuse in the fifth and fourth centuries BC?'

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The Saxon Shore forts get their name from the Notitia Dignitatum and are among the most impressive Roman remains in Britain, but why they were built remains unclear.

The team discuss the latest episode of the Magazine Ancient Warfare XV.5

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It is a big thanks to Gerrard for emailing Murray this question. Murray tells us about who is his favourite military author, and why.

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A few months ago, in response to episode AW137, where the team discussed the Greco-Persian war, Maxnet got in touch via Facebook to ask which source was Murray quoting with respect to the Battle of Marathon. Murray explains the sources.

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It is the 1,900th anniversary of the building of Hadrian's Wall, that is if it was begun in AD 122 and not AD 119. Not only is there doubt over the year construction was started on the wall, but we also are not completely sure what its function was. As such, a good topic for the team to discuss.

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Rich posed this question for Murray, 'we have a relatively good picture of what the Roman Legionary weapons and materiel manufacturing process looked like (at least for some time periods).

Do we have any similar information for the Philippian/Alexandrian Macedonian army? That's a lot of 16-foot-long sarissa shafts and spear points to manufacture, and I'm curious what we know about it'.

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Patron of the podcast Chris writes, 'we are told right before the great Illyrian revolt of AD 6-9, the Romans were preparing a campaign against king Maroboduus and the Marcomanni. It is said he had an army of 74,000 (70,000 infantry and 4,000 Cavalry). What do you guys think the outcome would have been of that war/campaign; would he have stood a chance resisting the roman campaign?'

Murray gives us his opinion.

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Scot emailed us this question for Murray to answer; 'Certain tribal confederations, like the Franks & Saxons, typically bear "namesake" weapons (e.g. the Francisca and the Sax). Is the name of the weapon thought to be derived from the name of the confederation, or is the name of the confederation derived from the weapon?'

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