The Modern Mexico Podcast

On this episode of THE MODERN MEXICO PODCAST host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Noah Hurowitz, author of the book EL CHAPO: THE UNTOLD STORY OF THE WORLD'S MOST INFAMOUS DRUG LORD. "El Chapo could operate without any true fear of being captured. This undercuts the way El Chapo is seen in popular media. He [is] often likened to outlaw figures [such as] Robin Hood. But, I don’t know how accurate that is because the role of someone like El Chapo was not some cops and robbers dynamic. The drug trade and the modern Mexican state developed together and intertwined with one another. Drug traffickers [historically] had strong links with local political bosses who ensured a level of stability," Hurowitz says. Parish Flannery mentions recent trends in carjacking, homicides, and cargo truck hijacking in Sinaloa and also talks about his recent visit to Sinaloa to participate in an amateur cycling race between Culiacan and Badiraguato, two of El Chapo's former home bases. "I recently visited the most exclusive cemetery in Culiacan– the Jardines del Humaya. Something that really stands out is that BOTH powerful narcos and local elite business owners are buried there. The families have built these incredibly ornate shrines which cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Some have Roman columns and look like mini Ivy League university buildings. Others are hyper modern and made from glass and steel. When you are inside the cemetery you may see well-dressed, wealthy locals visiting the graves of deceased family members. You really can’t tell who is a narco and who is an empresario," Parish Flannery says. Regarding recent allegations from ProPublica and The New York Times that people working with Mexico's President Lopez Obrador accepted drug money from the Sinaloa Cartel, Hurowitz says: "I think it’s absolutely credible. I find it very believable that members of AMLO’s party potentially received bribes from El Chapo and Los Chapitos and other organized crime networks. Bribery is endemic in Mexico and it would not surprise me if members of government even at the highest level are on the take. [Lopez Obrador] has insisted that fentanyl is not being produced in Sinaloa which is absurd. I’ve seen it myself. I’ve been to a drug lab in Sinaloa where fentanyl was being manufactured." Asked for one word to describe El Chapo's lasting legacy in Sinaloa, Hurowitz picks "nostalgia." "The period [when El Chapo] held power in Sinaloa was one of economic development. Communities in the mountains have been suffering. The illegal market for marijuana has collapsed. There is a lot of joblessness in the mountains. Many people I spoke to [had] a certain nostalgia about El Chapo as this old school guy from the mountains who treated people right," he says.

On this episode of THE MODERN MEXICO PODCAST host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Laura Calderon, the Executive Director of Justice in Mexico, a San Diego-based think tank. In spite of persistently high levels of organized crime-related violence, Tijuana has become one of Mexico’s success stories when it comes to "nearshoring" investment. The city has a thriving industrial sector that employs over a quarter of a million people. Between 2016 and 2022 foreign aerospace, automotive, and electronics companies invested over 11 billion dollars in the state of Baja California where Tijuana is located. Over 2,500 cargo trucks cross the border to the U.S. from Tijuana every day. The state of Baja California where Tijuana is located received $2.7 billion in foreign direct investment in 2023. But, this economic success story has not catalyzed a significant improvement in the security dynamic in Tijuana. Tijuana has earned a reputation as the most violent city in Mexico, and in terms of per capita homicides is often ranked as the most violent city in the world. Tijuana recorded 10,725 murders during the first five years of President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador's time in office (2019-2023). But, we don’t see evidence that powerful organized crime groups are trying to intimidate and extort foreign companies in Tijuana. Only 12 cargo truck hijackings occurred in the entire state of Baja California in 2023. That’s a tiny figure in comparison to the thousands of hijacking incidents recorded in the industrial states of Puebla and Estado de Mexico in central Mexico. Calderon says that she thinks crime in Tijuana affects nearshoring companies on a level of about "4 or 5 out of 10." "The economy is still going. There is a lot of industry, what we call maquiladoras. I think they are designing strategies to create alliances with the local government and ensuring protection for their businesses," she says. Criminal groups in Tijuana are not killing or kidnapping foreign executives, for instance. Calderon says that if the security situation in Tijuana is going to improve, Mexico needs to work to improve the institutional capacity of police and prosecutors.

On this episode of THE MODERN MEXICO PODCAST host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to James Frederich, a veteran Mexico correspondent who traveled to the beach city Acapulco to report on the storm damage caused by Hurricane Otis. While 200 mile per hour gusts of wind buffeted the city, residents and hotel guests cowered inside. Nearly 250,000 homes were damaged and many beachfront hotels were almost totally destroyed. Initial estimates calculated that over 80% of the city’s 20,000 hotel rooms had been damaged and that the bill for reconstruction would top sixteen billion dollars. Mexico’s president, a polarizing populist named Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, has faced criticism for his response to the storm. James gives him an "F" for his initial response to the hurricane. "In terms of just helping people who needed food and water and medical care there was nothing those first couple of days. At the same time, President Lopez Obrador was playing down the damage and the deaths in Acapulco. I think unequivocally his response was terrible. They were just trying to do PR to make it not look as bad as it was. It was really terrible," James explains. "The damage I saw in Acapulco was incomparable to anything I’ve seen anywhere else. It was the strongest hurricane to ever hit [Pacific Coast] Mexico [and] one of the strongest hurricanes to hit a city in recorded history. The winds that were recorded in Acapulco as Hurricane Otis was at its strongest, were some of the strongest winds ever recorded on Earth and were certainly the strongest to ever be recorded hitting a city," James adds. "I don’t want to be pessimistic. It has such tremendous potential. It’s sad to see that not be realized. But, there are huge challenges for [Acapulco] to rebuild. I can’t be confident that it’s going to be back. But, I really hope it does. It’s a beautiful city. The idea that the hurricane was the death blow to it is really tragic to think about," he says.

On this episode of the Modern Mexico Podcast host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Laura Tillman about her new book, THE MIGRANT CHEF: THE LIFE AND TIMES OF LALO GARCIA. Lalo Garcia is one of Mexico's most celebrated chefs. His flagship restaurant Maximo Bistrot has helped to burnish Mexico's reputation as a culinary superpower. Laura gives a detailed overview of her work writing about Lalo's impact on Modern Mexico's gastronomy and soft power standing in the world. Asked about her favorite dish she has seen Lalo prepare, she says, “One that comes to mind that I watched him make is baby corn elote with hollandaise sauce and a chicatana / chile ant dust. The result was so rich and creamy. And these waves of flavor kept coming as you ate it from this sweet tender corn, the caramel notes in the brown butter, the deep richness of the parmesan cheese. None of these ingredients are incredibly luxurious. But, the result was so luxurious to eat. This was just a very delicious bite.” She also explains how Lalo's life experiences have influenced the ever-evolving menu at Maximo Bistrot. “[During his early childhood] he was eating the food from his village, tamales de ceniza, moronga blood sausage, mole, carnitas, all of these foods that his mother would prepare. When he came back to Mexico he was working at Pujol, this top restaurant, he learned a lot [there]. He traveled to Oaxaca. He spent a lot of time in Baja California. He’s brought all of those different experiences to his restaurant along with his travels to France and Italy. When you go to Maximo today you will see all of those influences on the menu," she says.

On this episode of the MODERN MEXICO PODCAST, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Stephanie Brewer, a Mexico-focused security expert at the Washington Office on Latin America. When he was an aspiring presidential candidate, Mexico's current president, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador demanded justice in the case of 43 missing students from Guerrero and criticized the rampant impunity that has long protected the politically powerful in Mexico. Lopez Obrador once promised that if elected he would order the army to return to the barracks. As president, however, he has embraced Mexico’s armed forces to a degree that is unprecedented in Modern Mexican history. "Whoever comes to office next has a large task before them. But, the necessary route to strengthen security and rule of law in Mexico is to bet on criminal justice, civil institutions, and policing and not continue this distorted and ultimately not effective focus on militarization," Brewer says. "Lopez Obrador’s presidency has logged over 165,000 murders. With over a year to go in his term, Lopez Obrador’s is already marked as the most violent sexenio in Modern Mexican history. I’m not sure that people around the world really grasp the severity of the violence Mexico is experiencing," Parish Flannery explains. Brewer recently published a report, "Human Rights and Democratic Controls in a Context of Increasing Militarization in Mexico."

On the latest episode of the MODERN MEXICO PODCAST, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to veteran BBC correspondent Will Grant about his new book, ¡POPULISTA! THE RISE OF LATIN AMERICA'S 21ST CENTURY STRONGMAN. During the conversation, Parish Flannery and Grant discuss the differences between populism and authoritarianism and compare and contrast Mexico's President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador (AMLO) with Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, Bolivia's Evo Morales, Ecuador's Rafael Correa, and other modern authoritarian leaders in Latin America. Grant says that one of the leaders that he thinks is most similar to Lopez Obrador is Rafael Correa. "What I see [as a] similarity between their two trajectories is the increasing authoritarianism as time has gone by, their refusal to accept any meaningful criticism as anything but an attack on themselves and their political project. I think they both have dogmatic rhetoric [and] sense that they are simply right. There is very little space politically for reasoned debate. I see similarities there, too," he explains. But he says that Lopez Obrador's embrace of the military is similar to a strategy Hugo Chavez used in Venezuela. "The military is crucial to the populist leader in the Americas and we see that in Lopez Obrador. He’s leaned on them for all manner of tasks that go beyond security. They can get things done in a very satisfying way for the populist. That’s what the military does. They don’t question orders. They just carry them out. For Chavez that was key. Make them politicized, make them loyalists. [Now] we get to see the extent to which AMLO starts doing that to the military," Grant says. Grant says that Lopez Obrador, like many other populists, choose to communicate directly with voters through press conferences, unfiltered by the media. But, he warns, Lopez Obrador doesn't match Chavez's ability to mesmerize a room with his presentations. "Chavez could take to the stage. It was electric and electrifying. He was a rock star. AMLO has never had that in the same way. He inspires devotion. But rhetorically speaking… [AMLO] is like a university professor, one of the guys who just drones on and on," he says. “I think that the bigger question is what kind of precedent Lopez Obrador has set for Mexico. He has proven this strategy of attacking and discrediting critics is very effective. His hyper-polarized rhetoric has really worked for him. He’s been able to maintain a high approval rating. I saw some survey data recently that shows that nearly 70% of respondents in Mexico said they had a positive view of having a powerful leader who is not beholden to congress or elections. Even more alarming, nearly half of survey respondents in Mexico said that they had a positive view of letting the army run the country. So, it certainly seems like there is an appetite for authoritarianism in Mexico," Parish Flannery explains.

On this episode of the MODERN MEXICO PODCAST, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Steve Woodman, a Mexico-based organized crime researcher at Advanced Intelligence Solutions, about the long history of vanilla production in the state of Veracruz, Mexico by Totonaco indigenous residents. Nathaniel talks about his recent visit to Veracruz where he met with indigenous vanilla growers and learned about the problems the sector faces today. One grower gave a tip for staying safe: "Always carry a shotgun." Veracruz is a hotspot for organized crime activity and vanilla growers in the state struggle to deal with thefts of their crops during harvest season. Nathaniel and Steve talk about how the problems in the vanilla sector in Veracruz reflect bigger political dynamics in the state. “In that area [of Mexico] we’ve seen extortion rackets targeting indigenous communities. There have been forced disappearances and murders. Overall, agricultural crime is an issue in Veracruz. Extortion of farmers has been an issue. It’s not surprising that vanilla theft occurs. It’s a very profitable crop. Robberies are very likely given the broader security context in Veracruz. It matches a trend across Mexico where organized crime has diversified into new areas," Steve explains.

On this episode of the MODERN MEXICO PODCAST, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery speaks to historian Peter Guardino about the Mexican American War, a conflict that saw U.S. soldiers invade Mexico City and force Mexico to sell the U.S. a significant chunk of its northern terrain. Today, border cities such as El Paso and Juarez, Tijuana and San Diego have emerged as major population hubs, home to millions of residents and thousands of businesses that benefit from cross-border trade. But, at the outbreak of the Mexican-American War, much of the western swathe of the modern-day border zone was inhabited or visited by small groups of Spanish-speaking settlers and small groups of American traders and adventurers. Far from the population centers in central Mexico and the U.S.’s eastern seaboard, this border region was peripheral and not hugely important to economic and political dynamics in either the U.S. or Mexico. Peter describes the war as "tragic, unjust, and damaging." "Many people died. It was a war of conquest. President Polk and other expansionists wanted California and also New Mexico, [the territory that today is] Arizona, Colorado and Nevada. They were very interested in acquiring this territory. What Polk did was engineer a war to force Mexico to sell this territory," he explains. Peter talks about the research behind his new book, THE DEAD MARCH: A HISTORY OF THE MEXICAN-AMERICAN WAR.

On this episode of the MODERN MEXICO PODCAST, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks about Mexico's solar energy sector with Diego Rivera Rivota, a Research Associate at the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University. Mexico is one of the best potential locations for solar energy generation in the world—it has great sun with minimal seasonal variability. Overall, Mexico is well-positioned to produce competitively priced solar-generated electricity. Over the last decade, Mexico has successfully attracted billions of dollars in new investment in solar energy. Over the last few years, Mexico's wind and solar energy production, as a share of total electricity generated, has quadrupled. But, investment in solar energy has stalled during the administration of President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, a controversial populist. Diego describes Mexican President Lopez Obrador's attitude towards renewable energy as "nationalistic, hostile, and backwards." Overall, he gives Lopez Obrador an "F" for his solar energy policies. "Given the stagnant result of renewable energy development I’m afraid I can only give an 'F' to this government’s energy policy in terms of renewable development. Not only has it failed to promote and increase investment in renewable energy, but the policies implemented by this government have actively undermined the development of these projects. This has meant a lost opportunity for new projects, solar panels, wind farms, but also an overall higher cost of electricity," Diego says. Mexico still has a chance to become a solar energy super power, but to realize its potential, it needs remove obstacles and attract funding for new projects.

In this episode of the MODERN MEXICO PODCAST host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Falko Ernst, a Mexico analyst at the International Crisis Group about the dynamics of organized crime in Michoacan, Mexico. The discussion examines the connections between Mexico's multi-billion dollar avocado sector and the violence that has killed over 10,000 people in Michoacan during the presidency of Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador. Falko gives Lopez Obrador a "D-" grade for his security policies in Michoacan. Nathaniel talks about his field work investigating the role of organized crime in the avocado sector in Tancitaro, Michoacan, which was published in his book SEARCHING FOR MODERN MEXICO. Falko explains that avocados aren't the only product affected by organized crime. Falko mentioned criminal involvement in the production and export of limes, grapefruit, minerals, and berries in Michoacan. “It’s not just about avocados. It’s a huge list. The [organized crime] portfolio includes dozens of items from licit economic activities,” he said. “It’s also been a trend for these groups to channel their money into orchards and become entrepreneurial strongmen on the local level," Falko added.

In this episode of the MODERN MEXICO PODCAST host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Ryan Berg, the Americas Director at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington D.C.-based think tank about the divergent narratives about Mexico's trajectory. Political analysts such as Ian Bremmer laud Mexico as an emerging industrial powerhouse, while many Republican politicians are calling Mexico a narco-state. Ryan says he thinks that nearshoring is happening "in spite of" Mexico's President Lopez Obrador and not because of him. He gives Lopez Obrador a C- for his nearshoring promotion policies. He also warns that violent cargo truck hijackings are a major risk for companies operating in Mexico.

In this episode of The Modern Mexico Podcast, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Douglas Coleman, the CEO of the Mexican Mining Center, about the risks affecting Mexico's mining sector. Coleman says that while companies are still exploring, new investment is slowing. He describes President Lopez Obrador's attitude towards the mining sector as "distrustful, antagonistic, and uninformed." Overall, he gives Lopez Obrador a "C-" for the quality of his mining sector policies. Coleman says that the most complicated issue for mining companies in Mexico to manage is relations with local indigenous groups. Coleman also discusses the impact organized crime groups have on mining companies' operations in Mexico.

In this episode of the Modern Mexico Podcast, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery speaks to Mexico historian Nathaniel Morris about his new book SOLDIERS, SAINTS AND SHAMANS: INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES AND THE REVOLUTIONARY STATE IN MEXICO'S GRAN NAYAR. Morris says of President AMLO, "I’d give him…a B+ for presentation. He talks the talk. But, he’s getting a D for me when it comes to actual implementation of genuinely positive change at least in the communities I’ve been working in. It’s a lot of hot air."

In the third episode of the Modern Mexico Podcast, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery speaks to Mexico historian AS Dillingham about Day of the Dead and indigenous identity in Mexico. Dillingham's new book OAXACA RESURGENT: INDIGENEITY, DEVELOPMENT, AND INEQUALITY IN TWENTIETH-CENTURY MEXICO is about public schools, indigenous groups, and teachers unions in Oaxaca, Mexico. Dillingham explains that President "AMLO’s relationship to indigenous communities could be described as rhetorical, paternalistic and folkloric. I think he stands in a long tradition of Mexican politicians who don indigenous dress or make superficial references to indigenous communities while doing little to respectfully engage with those communities [and] their political traditions.”

MEXICO'S ECONOMY: In the second episode of the Modern Mexico Podcast, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery speaks to the Council on Foreign Relations' Mexico expert, Shannon O'Neil, about Mexico's economy. Shannon shares her pessimism about Mexico's President Lopez Obrador's economic management and explains why she gives him an "F" for his economic stewardship. “I’m less impressed than with the overall macroeconomics, it’s not a C it’s closer to failing. Let me lay me lay out why the grade is so bad. What has allowed Mexico to grow has been…growth and expansion of the private sector. The policy choices of this government are limiting that today but also into the future. This is most visible in the energy sector. You see the state stepping in more and more. That I think is detrimental to seeing expansion of [economic] activities and jobs," she explains.

On this episode host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Mexico historian Benjamin T. Smith about his new book, THE DOPE: THE REAL HISTORY OF THE MEXICAN DRUG TRADE. During the discussion we talk about Mexico's narco history, the patterns that have emerged over decades, and the political power structures in Mexico that allow organized crime groups to operate. We also discuss President Andres Manuel Lopez Obador's security strategy and why he is struggling to reduce violence and crime in Mexico. Smith thinks that Lopez Obrador is trying to re-establish the same mutually beneficial relationships that Mexico's federal government maintained with drug trafficking groups during much of the 20th century. So far, however, he has failed to reduce violent crime. "It’s possible his solutions are 15 years too late. Mexico has changed. I’m not sure you can just do deals with big capos, major leaders of the so-called cartels and bring peace to Mexico. I don’t think that’s going to work," Smith explains.

On this episode of th Modern Mexico Podcast host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to historian Edward Shawcross about his new book, THE LAST EMPEROR OF MEXICO. Shawcross's book tells the story of an ambitious and somewhat delusional Austrian archduke named Maximilian von Hapsburg who set sail for Mexico with plans to invade and install himself as an enlightened despot in the mid 1860s. The history of Maximilian, an ambitious but flawed leader who had progressive ideals but embraced authoritarian tactics, can help us understand contemporary politics in Mexico. Shawcross discusses the similarities and differences between Maximilian and Mexico's current president, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador. Shawcross explains, “From my point of view it seems [Lopez Obrador] is tending towards populism and authoritarianism more than the kind of democracy that was envisioned in the 1850s and 1860s, this radical tradition of Mexican liberalism that is on the side of the people [and was] trying to create durable institutions.”

Host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to David Lida, author of the book "First Stop In The New World: Mexico City, The Capital of The 21st Century," about the turkey's path from Mexico to Europe, and back to the U.S. Is Mexico given enough credit for being the country that introduced turkey to the world? Most people in the U.S. don't realize that the turkey they eat on Thanksgiving has its roots in Mexico and is descended from birds raised by Aztecs. Nathaniel and David also discuss the best restaurants in Mexico City for eating turkey and the best turkey dishes within Mexican cuisine. Lida explains, "I think [the cross-bred genetics of U.S. and Mexican turkeys] is evidence of the symbiotic relationship between the U.S. and Mexico. There’s an enormous symbiosis between these two countries and turkeys are just another example of that.”

Host Nathaniel Parish Flannery talks to Human Rights Watch Mexico Researcher Tyler Mattiace about why Mexico is now the most dangerous country in the world for journalists and human rights activists. Mattiace explains, "Mexico consistently ranks as one of the most dangerous countries in the world for journalists, usually it’s on par with countries where there is a war: Ukraine, Afghanistan. It’s also one of the top most dangerous places for human rights defenders and human rights activists.” Asked to give President Lopez Obrador a grade for his approach to human rights, Mattiace says, "his worldview doesn’t center around human rights. I would give him an F, a bad grade."

In this episode of the Modern Mexico Podcast, host Nathaniel Parish Flannery speaks to Brookings Institution senior fellow Vanda Felbab-Brown about security issues in Mexico and why President Lopez Obrador is failing to meaningfully address the country's historically high murder rate. Mexico has soldiers in the streets but no meaningful law enforcement strategy for addressing violent crime. “There is no law enforcement strategy other than sending forces to stand in the streets and more or less do nothing. That’s really disastrous, the violence has become brazen. The level of homicides is very intense, similar to what a country in an intense war experiences," Felbab-Brown explains.